Re: NANFA-- Collecting ethics

njz (njz_at_clevelandmetroparks.com)
Tue, 13 Jan 2004 22:03:29 -0500

Stan, I would not debate your point. You are exactly correct, there are a
lot of hobbyist out there with the same drive and interest as any
"professional". As far as my credentials, although others have commented on
my behalf, that is not the issue here. The issue is collecting and keeping
declining species. I have to beleive that you would agree with me that
there are a relative handful of hobbyists who could honestly accept the
responsibility of an imperiled species. And to bring the point home, should
those people be able to collect these species at will? I don't think that
even professionals should be able to collect these species at will! As far
as your views on animals feeling "comfortable enough" to reproduce, this is
a very anthropomorphic statement. Reproduction is a instictual and there
are many environmental factors which drive this. I have seen and heard of
many animals kept in appalling environments which still reproduce. Although
we feel that the animals may need to be "comfortable" to breed, I don't
think that it is a measure of how close we are recreating nature in a
captive environment. And to fuel your argument, the "professional" aquarium
people have learned a great deal of information on the husbandry of coral
reef systems. Without the hobbyists dedication, you would not see the
stunning public reef displays found in many public aquariums. And finally,
your comment "it is impossible to seperate a love a species from a love of
its native environment" is totally untrue. Try visiting a pet store, you
will see people who absolutely are crazy about fish but haven't a clue as to
where they come from or the habitat they naturally live in. I will assume
that you mispoke on that. I never put anyone down or said that hobbyists
are bad or anything of the such. However I caution you on your approach
because it certainly sounds a bit hypocritical. I do not believe I said
anything unrealistic.

Nick Zarlinga

"If we ignore nature.....maybe it'll go away."

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stan Perkins" <stanperkins_at_academicplanet.com>
To: <nanfa_at_aquaria.net>
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: NANFA-- Collecting ethics

> Nick,
> How often do you have to replace specimens on exhibit?
> How often do you have breeding success with your specimens on exhibit? I
> dare say that there are a lot of hobbist out there with the same drive and
> interest as any "professional". From your unrealistic statements, you are
> either very young or very inexperienced - or both. An aquarium, a pond or
> any artificial enclosure is just that - artificial. You cannot maintain
> specimens in "their native environments" in a tank. You must go out of you
> way to provide a habitat that the animals feel comfortable in. One measure
> of that comfort is natural behavior and spawing with subsiquent rearing of
> the young. If you believe that this does not require dedication,
observation
> skills and a love of your subjects, you have problems. There aquarist in
the
> world that are so knowledgeble that professionals utilize their knowledge
> and experience in their own work.
> Finally it is impossible to seperate a love a species from a love of its
> native environment. Aquarist jump through hoops providing environments as
> close to nature as possible. EVEN to the point of using muddy leafy
bottoms
> where the fish seem never to be seen. Grow up - talk to these folks and
you
> will find kindred lovers of nature. But never, never put someone down
> because you feel you are better than they are because you look at things
> from a different angle. Diversity is Mother Nature smiling.
>
> Enough preaching I'm going to eat a bowl of shrimp and gar gumbo with
smoked
> mullet.
>
> Stan Perkins
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nick Zarlinga" <njz_at_clevelandmetroparks.com>
> To: <nanfa_at_aquaria.net>
> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 9:16 AM
> Subject: RE: NANFA-- Collecting ethics
>
>
> > Measuring the passion quotient is easy. Look at the huge number of
> > hobbyists in the world and you tell me how many have the incling that
> > tropical fish actually come from a real place! As we have discussed.
The
> > problem with humans is that we are so disconnected with our environment
> and
> > we loose site that our animals actually came from a wild place! We
> discuss
> > is all the time on this list. Rember the thread about how people are
told
> > that you have to boil your driftwood and rocks before you put them in
your
> > aquarium? And hobbyists have a tendency to keep their aquariums
sparkling
> > clean. No algae and no detritus is how fish are supposed to be kept?
As
> if
> > these fish are never exposed to mud, pathogens, or algae in their
natural
> > environment. Hobbyists don't think of where there fish come from, they
> just
> > think of them in the tank. Again, this is shear numbers alone. The
exact
> > opposite thinking is what endeared me to NANFA. A group of hobbyists
who
> > are really in tune with their animals *and* the natural environments
where
> > they come from. We can have intelligent debates about all these topics.
> > But I don't believe that you can tell me that the percentage of
hobbyists
> in
> > this country who have a serious passion about their animals is the same
as
> > in the professional world. Again its all about numbers. And we all
b*tch
> > about the "average" hobbyist on this list server.
> >
> > Nick Zarlinga
> > Aquarium Biologist
> > Cleveland Metroparks Zoo
> > 216.661.6500 ext 4485
> >
> >
> > ><)> -----Original Message-----
> > ><)> From: owner-nanfa_at_aquaria.net
> > ><)> On Behalf
> > ><)> Of EELReprah_at_aol.com
> > ><)> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 10:10 AM
> > ><)> To: nanfa_at_aquaria.net
> > ><)> Subject: Re: NANFA-- Collecting ethics
> > ><)>
> > ><)>
> > ><)> In a message dated 1/12/04 9:50:27 AM,
> > ><)> njz_at_clevelandmetroparks.com writes:
> > ><)>
> > ><)> << There are certainly a higher percentage of
> > ><)> biologists with a
> > ><)>
> > ><)> passion that hobbyists. >>
> > ><)>
> > ><)> I don't buy that. I think the percentage of
> > ><)> passion is probably the same. The
> > ><)> hobbyist has only passion as a driving force, The
> > ><)> professional has both
> > ><)> passion and livelihood. Quantitative evaluation is
> > ><)> impossible since I don't know
> > ><)> how to measure the passion quotient.
> > ><)>
> > ><)> Lee Harper
> > ><)> Media, PA
> > ><)> ---------------------------
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> > ><)> American Native Fishes
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--
> /"Unless stated otherwise, comments made on this list do not necessarily
> / reflect the beliefs or goals of the North American Native Fishes
> / Association"
> / This is the discussion list of the North American Native Fishes
Association
> / nanfa_at_aquaria.net. To subscribe, unsubscribe, or get help, send the word
> / subscribe, unsubscribe, or help in the body (not subject) of an email to
> / nanfa-request_at_aquaria.net. For a digest version, send the command to
> / nanfa-digest-request_at_aquaria.net instead.
> / For more information about NANFA, visit our web page,
http://www.nanfa.org
/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
/"Unless stated otherwise, comments made on this list do not necessarily
/ reflect the beliefs or goals of the North American Native Fishes
/ Association"
/ This is the discussion list of the North American Native Fishes Association
/ nanfa_at_aquaria.net. To subscribe, unsubscribe, or get help, send the word
/ subscribe, unsubscribe, or help in the body (not subject) of an email to
/ nanfa-request_at_aquaria.net. For a digest version, send the command to
/ nanfa-digest-request_at_aquaria.net instead.
/ For more information about NANFA, visit our web page, http://www.nanfa.org