Re: NANFA-- an article regarding the bait dealer

Steffen Hellner (
Mon, 15 Mar 2004 00:16:42 +0100

>> Regardless what subspecies, e.g. it is not allowed to keep any Salamandra
>> >ssp. even if they don4t occur in that state. No S.s. gallaica from
>> in >Netherlands (though that subspecies is way different from the S.s.
>> terrestris >found there naturally).
> Unfortunately there are very good reasons for these regulations due to
> individual irresponsibility. An escape or deliberate release from one
> subspecies which gets into the wild genepool can have huge implications for
> conservation of the native stock. This has happened in the UK with some
> populations of the Great Crested Newt, where Continental subspecies
> by hobbyists have, through idiocy, incompetence or whatever, managed to
> and interbreed with wild stock. These populations no longer qualify for
> protection due to this genetic pollution, and so the areas in which they
> also lose protection from development, which leaves many other species that
> shared the same habitat also vulnerable. The fools who triggered this were
> maintaining the Newts in outside vivaria, as if Triturus are incapable of
> climbing...

As far as I am informed this regulation as in Italy etc. is not the case in
UK. And to keep an island safe is not the real problem compared to
continental land. The point is about substitution. Why did and do people get
e.g. crested newts from outside the UK? Cause they are not allowed to have
native ones! And why? Cause of environmental pressure groups who in general
have no idea about what they are really doing. It4s policy, not protecting

You are absolutely right with the fatal cross-breeding! But this is the
point to me: Why force people to maintain salamandras from eastern Europe
only to have the so-called "environmentalist/animalist fraction keep
satisfied? If the native/local subspecies where allowed, nobody would get a
specimen from elsewhere of the same subspecies. Most problems of
cross-breeding is caused by "environmentalist" transferring populations/
specimen to other locations to "save them". This happens all the time and to
an extend much higher than by pet keepers.

> There have been similar problems caused by escaped Alpine and Marbled
> each of which can potentially hybridise with UK species. So who is the
> of such legislation, over-zealous authorities or people more interested in
> indulging some perception of their own liberty without accepting the
> responsibility involved?
> Also, if we look at Salamandra, this prevents anyone keeping threatened
> subspecies (possibly illegally collected form the wild) and trying to claim
> that they are in fact from somewhere else. The alternative would involve
> costly and protracted investigations to prove their origin which act as a
> drain on already scarce resources. Cases have been known where people
> collected wild stock from threatened populations because with unbelieveable
> arrogance they felt that they alone 'knew better' than existing
> efforts. When looked at further some of these individuals have proved to
> been rejected by conservation bodies because they show no interest in
> following the guidelines. The real shame is, some of these individuals
> undoubtedly had valuable husbandry skills, but purely because of their own
> inability to work in a team they were too much of a liability.


Sorry, but I cannot take this again and again and again repeated mock
anymore. Threats only result from destruction or deterriation of habitats.
And pollution. No other reasons detectable. Only in the weird fantasy of
environmental hypocrits!

Do you have an idea how dense the populations of e.g. Salamandra atra are?
Experts in herpetology state them as "filled to the maximum". This as long
as there are no skiers in winter, no building of hotels or roads or whatever
and no excavation of gravel. Same with any species/subspecies of salamandra
in Europe. Now you!

> I'm sure that if anyone was dedicated enough to go through the appropriate
> procedures they would be able to take part in captive breeding efforts for
> particular species, but they would have to observe the protocols set down.

The what you call "procedures" are just a placebo for the public! None and
never authorities prove any case, any paper, any origine - even the attempt
would be impossible as the laws and regulations are younger than the hobby
and the costs of a proper control system would excced those for the chunnel.

Nobody hardly cared for newts and salamanders as long as they where free to
take. Now they are "endangered" (which in fact most aren4t and those which
are not by collecting) and face interest around the world. What4s this? It4s
marketing, it4s collector4s spirit and other motivations. Only very, very
few people are really interested in them. And especially not
environmentalists. Mapping and monitoring of salamanders and newts is done
by hobbyists. The "environmentalists" only care for birds and mammals and
spectacular groups or species. Other than that they won4t get enough
donations. Hello Greenpeace Inc. stockholder enterprises. Know how much
money these and others have been given and how little they have spent of it
for natures benefit? It4s annoying.

And for captive breeding projects: Where are they? And if present, who is
behind them? The public? Authorities? Make me laugh!

Final example: The breeding station for Comodo Dragons wanted to sell raised
offspring to Germany. It was rejected by our authorities. But the offspring
by that is in danger of being fed to the adults as they where overstock.
Congratulations burocrazy!

Please, don4t take it personal!

/"Unless stated otherwise, comments made on this list do not necessarily
/ reflect the beliefs or goals of the North American Native Fishes
/ Association"
/ This is the discussion list of the North American Native Fishes Association
/ To subscribe, unsubscribe, or get help, send the word
/ subscribe, unsubscribe, or help in the body (not subject) of an email to
/ For a digest version, send the command to
/ instead.
/ For more information about NANFA, visit our web page,