Re: NANFA-- Bluenose shiner news [off topic]
Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:11:39 +0700

It is interesting that so far there is no splendens found by me
and friends in Betta sp. mahachai habitat. Some populations of
wildtype splendens and wild imbellis can tolerate salt since they can
be found in brackish water habitat too, so something must be going on
for Mahachai betta to be the only betta species/variety in its

Other interesting point is that local betta arena breeder gurus
in Mahachai area seem to differentiate Mahachai betta and wildtype
splendens well. They call Mahachai betta "Pla par" [that means
"forest fish"] or "luk par" since they are generally found in Jak
forest [Jak is a type of palm-like plant that like barckish water] or
"Pla kiew" [= green fish], and call wildtype splendens "Pla rong",
"Pla tung" or "Luk rong" [[generally mean "ditch or field fish" since
they are found in canals, ditches, and fields generally further north]
or "Pla daeng" [= red fish]. They seems not to differentiate between
the wild imbellis from the south from wildtype splendens from the
north [they do say that fish from specific location is better at
fighting than others, but not restrict to species] since they refers
to both as "Pla daeng". They seem to use this knowledge to cross
Mahachai [Pla kiew] with wild splendens [Pla daeng] or fighting form
splendens to create faked Mahachai to fool careless arena opponents
[using stronger hybrid against real wild Pla kiew ^_^].

Steffen Hellner wrote:
> I agree to your arguments. But the sp. Mahachai may be a tank bred hybrid
> form and then released. From this it is stable genetically (as stable as
> genetics can be - homocygotic to the edge of 99%). Genetic research will
> show in the nearer future.
> You are surely right with the wild type of splendens. I have a "wild" strain
> but it looks as it is not pure, too much color in it but stable phenotype
> over more than 10 years now. Not really aggressive, rather small and slender
> (depends much on nutrition), not too prolific. But a true wild one is hard
> to find and even more to get at hands.
> Steffen
> > Von:
> > Antworten an:
> > Datum: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 05:45:16 +0700
> > An:
> > Betreff: Re: NANFA-- Bluenose shiner news [off topic]
> >
> > That is a good one. Nobody knows for 100% sure if Mahachai betta
> > is indeed a new species or originate from a variety evolved from
> > release of fighting-form bettas from ancient times. Mahachai area is
> > a hot spot for betta "arena" for hundred of years and both wild bettas
> > [wild splendens, wild imbellis and smaragdina] and fighting-form
> > bettas from all over the country have been brought into the area for
> > fighting/betting purpose [some would have been released]. Anyway real
> > Betta sp. Mahachai does exist in the wild and their outward appearance
> > seems to be consistent throughout their natural range, and they breed
> > true [F1 and F2 are similar to parents].
> > The copper variety is developed from crossing Mahachai betta X
> > domestic splendens and/or imbellis. They are not real wild Mahachai
> > betta. Also years ago [the practice is still committed] there are
> > Mahachai X imbellis betta cross sold as "Indo betta" and "real
> > Mahachai betta" [which it is not real]. These fishes cause lots of
> > coufusion to what real Beta sp. Mahachai actually is.
> > Generally wildtype Betta splendens is NOT what is shown in most
> > books. The big short thing is actually fighting-form splendens
> > [Plakadmor]developed for fighting purpose. Real wildtype splendens
> > [Plakadtung, Plakadluktung, Plakadpar] is much more slender and
> > smaller and the coloration seems to be more or less similar throughout
> > their range.
> > I wonder if fighting-form betta is released into Betta
> > sp.Mahachai habitat will they be fit enough to survive and spawn with
> > Betta sp. Mahachai in such freechoice situation. Channa striata and
> > Channa gachua do live in Mahachai betta's home and would be happy to
> > deal with short, fat stuff that is released there.
> > BTW if a fish is originated from natural hybrid of a few species
> > and evolves over time in the wild till the phenotype is fixed
> > [descendants's appearances are more or less uniform] in the wild
> > should it be regarded as a morph, variety or species?
> >
> > Tony
> >
> >
> >
> > Steffen Hellner wrote:
> >>
> >> Do you speak of the dubious Betta sp. Mahachai? I have had them, they for me
> >> look like a hybride of imbellis x splendens x smaragdina. The Thais are very
> >> good in mixing these species and build up viable strains, e.g. the very hard
> >> fighters or the copper-colored. And they are as good in setting those
> >> strains free. But maybe I am wrong and it is a valid species. Time will
> >> show.
> >>
> >> Steffen
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