Re: NANFA-L-- mollies and calcium

Bob Bock (bockhouse-in-earthlink.net)
Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:13:17 -0500

I keep some wild-type looking descendants of store boughts. It's hard to
say what their ancestry is--since the males are very large, probably
velifera. I did some research awhile back and found a history of the fish
the breeders used in trying to develop a black sailfin mollie. All three
species were used in attempts by various breeders: latipinna, velifera, and
the now hard to come by Petensis. It's hard to say just how much salt they
need in relation to calcium. I don't think any good experimental data
exists.

Joel Trexler found that latipinna from various locations will grow largest
and fastest in 2ppt, which I guesstimate to be about a half teaspoon per
gallon. Trexler just used Miami tapwater for his studies, which I suspect
is high in carbonate hardness (and therefore ca+). If you keep them in
water with low carbonate hardness, you'd probably need more sodium.

I seem to have the best luck keeping my storeboughts-in-about a teaspoon of
instant ocean per gallon, with added garden limestone.

Moon, since you asked, I know of no test for measuring calcium ions in
water, but you can test for it indirectly with a test kit for carbonate
hardness KH.

> [Original Message]
> From: James Smith <jbosmith-in-gmail.com>
> To: <nanfa-l-in-nanfa.org>
> Date: 3/24/2005 9:05:09 AM
> Subject: Re: NANFA-L-- mollies and calcium
>
> You're right, marine salt is likely better for them than the canning
> salt I use. I have buckets of canning salt though that was free :)
>
> I wasn't suggesting using rift lake salts for mollies, but for
> freshwater fish that need high mineral content.
>
> What kinds of mollies do you keep? I have a tank of latipinna courtesy
> of Laura Burbage, but they are breeding faster than I can give them
> away, and are getting replaced with some Xiphophorus birchmanni which
> I've been after for a while and just got. I really like the mollies,
> but I need the tank :(
>
> One funny molly observation.. when I setup that tank initially I had a
> bad batch of gravel that was leaching something into the water. I
> replaced it and all is well, but when it was there the fish often had
> their fins clamped. When the large males had their fins clamped, they
> woudn't use them to display in front of the females but would turn
> themselves so they looked like they were standing on their tail. :-)
>
> Jim
>
> On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 06:23:06 -0500, Bob Bock <bockhouse-in-earthlink.net>
wrote:
> > It depends on the density of the mollies you're keeping and the
proportion
> > of water you change and how often you change it. If you breed mollies,
> > like I do, and keep the density pretty high, you need to do frequent,
large
> > scale water changes. Crushed limestone and other high ca co3 materials
> > take a while to leach calcium into the water. In such instances, it
helps
> > to be able to get the calcium back into solution rapidly, so that the
> > calcium levels don't fluctuate.
> >
> > Calcium affects fish in much the same way osmotically as sodium--lots of
> > euryhaline species can adapt to water with calcium in it when sodium
isn't
> > available. That's why fishes like mummichog and sheepshead minnows will
> > survive in water with high carbonate hardness instead of their usual
> > brackish water.
> >
> > Another advantage of calcium salts is that you can grow plants in your
> > aquarium that you couldn't grow with higher levels of sodium.
> >
> > Finally, my hunch is that, in addition to sodium in the water, sailfin
> > mollies will also benefit from some carbonate hardness--although I
haven't
> > done any comparisons and don't have proof.
> >
> > Rather than using cichlid salts, which tend to be expensive, I use a
marine
> > salt mix, which already has calcium salts in it, and a teaspoon or so of
> > garden limestone, mixed first in a gallon of hot tapwater so it
dissolves
> > somewhat. Like I said before, I'd have better luck dissolving calcium
> > chloride, which is far more soluble, but I haven't been able to locate a
> > good source of it yet.
> >
> > > [Original Message]
> > > From: James Smith <jbosmith-in-gmail.com>
> > > To: <nanfa-l-in-nanfa.org>
> > > Date: 3/23/2005 7:40:23 AM
> > > Subject: Re: NANFA-L-- Rediscovery of the state-listed Iowa darter in
> > DuPage Co., Illinois
> > >
> > > Crushed shells or limestone pebbles in a HOB filter keeps the
> > > carbonate levels of the water plenty high enough. If you are looking
> > > for freshwater salts to add instead of NaCl, rift lake salt addatives
> > > will work wonders.
> > >
> > > For mollies, the salt they are used to is NaCl though, so in my
> > > opinion, that is what they should get. I personally use canning salt
> > > with mine. If they don't get it, they get eye infections or worse.
> > >
> > > On the other hand, when I keep rift lake African cichlids, I wouldn't
> > > even think about using canning salt instead of calcium based salts.
> > >
> > > Jim
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 06:22:49 -0500, Bob Bock <bockhouse-in-earthlink.net>
> > wrote:
> > > > Yes, thanks, Lee. I misspoke. I typed "calcium carbonate" when I
> > meant
> > > > to type "calcium chloride" I meant to tell Sajjaad that it would be
> > better
> > > > to use calcium chloride than calcium carbonate--the latter is far
more
> > > > soluble--only I haven't found a good source of calcium chloride.
> > > >
> > > > Still, I'd bet that calcium carbonate is probably better for plants
than
> > > > calcium chloride.
> > > >
> > > > > [Original Message]
> > > > > From: <EELReprah-in-aol.com>
> > > > > To: <nanfa-l-in-nanfa.org>
> > > > > Date: 3/22/2005 7:38:49 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: NANFA-L-- Rediscovery of the state-listed Iowa
darter in
> > > > DuPage Co., Illinois
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > In a message dated 3/22/05 6:39:04 AM, bockhouse-in-earthlink.net
writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > << Probably better still would be to
> > > > > add some calcium carbonate (which I haven't used because I haven't
> > been
> > > > > able to find some around here.). >>
> > > > >
> > > > > Bob, garden limestone is calcium carbonate. Not lime (slaked or
> > hydrated)
> > > > as
> > > > > used in cement which is calcium oxide.
> > > > >
> > > > > Lee Harper
> > > > > Media, PA
> > > > >
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