Re: NANFA-- biological bombs detonating everywhere

Thu, 3 Aug 2000 10:38:40 -0500

The reason their not available where I
>live is that LFS's cannot sell them, it's against the law. If they want to
>sell them they can apply for a bait dealers or fisheries license, but as
>you state below, there probably is not enough potential income to out
>weight the costs. They already have enough licensing to worry about. Again
>we get into the self-defeating argument.

What state do you live in, Ty? (I assume California, since you mentioned it
previus posts.)In most states, bluegill are considered gamefish, which may
explain why it's against the law for the LFS to sell them. It has nothing
to do
with environmental protection. It's got to do with the fact that bluegill
are a
resource from which money can be made. And as long as money's being made,
will be regulation.

**Wisconsin. I used to live in California, but escaped several years ago.
It seems that no matter how screwed up you think your state is, it's still
not as bad as California. They have some of the wierdest laws ever. So they
serve as a perfect worst case example!

>I disagree. Most people that I speak to would love to have natives. But,
>they think it's illegal or they don't know how to go about getting them. I
>would like to hear from someone that lives in a state where their local
>carries natives. How do they sell?

Ty, if you live in California, then indeed it is a problem. But the truth
most fish keepers -- and serious tropical fish hobbyists -- are not
in natives. That explains why NANFA's membership stays relatively small
to the ACA's and the AKA's....why major aquarum fish magazines like TFH and
run very little on natives...and why pet shops don't regularly stock them
(assuming the laws allow it).

**I argue that the reason is the lack of awarness propogated by the complex
laws that prevent (or make it prohibitively difficult) LFS from selling
native fishes. If the fish where as easy to sell as Oscars, they be selling
them and selling a lot of them. Kind of a chicken and egg scenario I guess.

Occasionally, the Aquarium Center just outside of Baltimore sells
Enneacanthus chaetodon. They're not cheap, though. ~$6 each the last time I
them. I have no idea how they sold.They didn't look that good though. I
the high temps in the store were affecting them.

>I disagree again. I prefer natives for just this reason. I don't have to
>buy a heater and I don't have to continually monitor my water temperature.
>This makes native much easier to keep. As for the Merchants, they all sell
>Goldfish don't they? One of the larger LFS's in this area even has a cold
>room, where he keeps all of his coldwater species. Besides, many so called
>tropicals do not require water as warm as typically provided. I have an
>unheated 55 with Shiners, a Bluegill, a Jack Demsey, a Goldfish and a
>Plecostomus all living together quite happily. My house is typically
>or cooled to around the mid to upper 70's. At this temperature all of the
>fish are quite happy and healthy. Many "tropicals" will do fine at lower
>household temperatures.

Some natives have wider temperature tolerances than others. Most shiners
darters, however, will not spawn in captivity unless they go through a
period. Most sculpins will die if temps exceed 70F. There are exceptions,
course, but as a rule natives require cooler, unheated aquaria. I don;t
where you live, but I'm in Baltmore. Right now my unheated aquaria -- in a
basement, no less -- are reaching 80F. So, depending on where you live, and
unique environmental conditions of your fishroom, it's far easier to keep
tropical fish with a heater. Just turn it on during the winter, and turn it
during the summer. The fish are just fine either way.

**True, but most "fish keepers" are not interested in spawning and most
fish will live long and happy lives in less then ideal water temperatures.

>Yes it's a crime. I have not read the exact law. I believe that they can
>sell them but there are restrictive and expensive licensing procedures
>would need to be taken care of. Making the prospect pretty much not
>financially fesible.

Again, because bluegill's classified as a gamefish. Does your LFS sell rosy
reds, which are actually fathead minnows (or a hybrid thereof)?

**Yes. Interesting point I'll have to check on how the state classifies
them. I had always assumed that pan fish where not classified as game fish.
Probably a mistake on my part.

>Agreed, but a Bass is not native in California. Just because the fish is
>from North America it's not native everywhere in North America.

That's why I put "native" in quotation marks, to distinguish native
species from foreign species.

>>The problems run deeper than idiot pet owners, unforunately. Essentially,
>>it all comes down to values. What does one value more? Short-term
>>and comfort? Or long-term ecosystem integrity? As long as it's man
calling the
>>shots, it will always be the former.
>Another A-men

Ty, I'm glad me agree on the deeper philosophical underpinnings, if not the
practical legal ramificiations.

**Me to. It's politics and religon, you can't please everyone all of the
time. What we need to do is continue to have open and non-threating dialog,
both amongst ourselves and with our lawmakers, in hopes that we can reach a
compromise that is in everyone's best interest. Besides until some of it
actually happens it mostly conjecture anyways.


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